{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/m32n58fb30/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Hogan, Ralph B."]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/289/original/CDCM_Mark_2.1.png?1728486742","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["David J. Sencer CDC Museum"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["1985"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Dr. Ralph B. Hogan, Chief of the Laboratory Branch at the Communicable Disease Center [CDC] from 1950-1961interviewed by Dr. Walter Dowdle in 1985."]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["video"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["oral history"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Dr. Ralph B. Hogan, Chief of the Laboratory Branch at the Communicable Disease Center [CDC] from 1950-1961interviewed by Dr. Walter Dowdle in 1985."]},"provider":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["David J. Sencer CDC Museum"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["David J. Sencer CDC Museum"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/289/original/CDCM_Mark_2.1.png?1728486742","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/247/445/small/1722773446_1985_Hogan_Ralph_B_faststart_1722773454.jpg?1722759054","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - 1985_Hogan_Ralph_B_faststart.mp4"]},"duration":4209.639,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/247/445/small/1722773446_1985_Hogan_Ralph_B_faststart_1722773454.jpg?1722759054","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-globalhealthchronicles.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/247/445/original/1985_Hogan_Ralph_B_faststart.mp4?1722773429","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":4209.639,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["[AssemblyAI Transcript] 1985 Hogan, Ralph B. [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it's a particular pleasure for me this afternoon, Doctor Hogan, to be given the assignment to interview you, as you probably, I don't know whether you remember or not, but when I came on in 1960, of course, you were the chief of the laboratory branch, and I remember very distinctly meeting you just outside the office in the hall for the first time. And so that year was a very pleasurable year for me while you were here, and brings back very pleasant memories. And I think it'd be nice to sort of review some of those and see your version of that, at least those two years and the previous eight years preceding that. So we might start this afternoon first by saying welcome and thank you very much for coming and asking you how you ever came to CDC in the first place. And what brought you here and what were the roads that got you to CDC in 1950?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=25.4,76.35"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, let me say that I'm very pleased to be here. This is like homecoming. There's no question about that. I spent those very interesting, and I believe, very profitable years at CDC, and they are some of my most treasured memories. And how did I get to CDC? This is, I guess, a story of my entire public health service life, because as I started with the public health service, I went through the usual procedures of being commissioned and started assignments. And once you started your assignments in the public health service, the usual procedure was just to be transferred every few years and sometimes every year. And my first assignments were at the marine hospitals. And then I did my tour of duty with the coast guard on the ice patrol, and then I got to a tour of duty on quarantine. I boarded ships and inspected crews and passengers for signs of illness or contagious diseases in Boston harbor for a year. And toward the end of that sequence, I had a phone call one day, and the phone call says, are you interested in going to Hopkins Johns Hopkins Hospital and having training in public health? And I said, well, I don't know what are the alternatives? And the alternative was, was if you don't want to go to Hopkins for training, you can stay in quarantine duty. And I said, well, that makes the decision quite easy. Please sign me up to go to Johns Hopkins for training in public health. And the individual who was behind that communication was Doctor von der Leir, who then was in charge of the division of venereal Disease Public Health Service. And he was starting a very diligent program to increase the effectiveness of the venereal disease control. And his attitude was, the way you do that is to have good people who are well trained and know what they're doing. I had looked around to choose some young people who he may train and start in his control program, beefing it up to utilize some marked increases in appropriations that had been made by Congress because they believed that there was a severe venereal disease problem in the United States. So that started the venereal disease control program. Having spent the year at Hopkins in special training in venereal disease control, but having started at Hopkins, I became acquainted with another man who was working at Johns Hopkins Hospital. His name was doctor Harry Eagle, whom I'm sure you know as one of the very outstanding individuals in many of infectious diseases, and particularly virology in his later years. And he saw fit to invite me to come to work with him. So I spent the next four years working with Harry Eagle on research for control of venereal diseases. And we worked primarily in serology for the identification of and screening for venereal disease. And also we synthesized a vast number of organic chemicals for use in the treatment of venereal disease. These were primarily phenylarsin oxides and carbamides. Utilizing the arsenical chains. We even tried. And as far as part of our treatment, control of venereal disease was concerned, because we were probably the first ones who tried out penicillin as a useful agent in treating venereal disease, particularly syphilis. And we found that it was no good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=76.35,384.818"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e And what year was that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=384.818,386.322"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e This was in 1937. Sorry, 1939. And the reason we found that it was no good was that we were using an in vitro technique, using spirochetes, live spirochetes from syphilitic rabbits. And this was an in vitro technique that had as its basic factor a time factor for neutralizing the life of the spirochete, as indicated by its motility.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=386.322,427.25"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Much as you do with a drug.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=427.25,428.81"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Much as you do with a drug. The problem was, and we didn't recognize it at that time, was that we were using too short an exposure time. And had we did it overnight instead of our usual three hour period, we would have demonstrated immediately and early there in 1939 that penicillin was enormously valuable for the treatment of venereal disease. We goofed on that one, but otherwise, that was a very important procedure. Well, while we were working on venereal diseases, we had an animal house over at the marine hospital, the other side of town at the marine hospital. And I used to go over there quite frequently and got to the pathologist over at the marine hospital. His name was. You'll have to pardon my age. I'll think of it now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=428.81,496.56"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e That's all right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=496.56,497.408"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I know him like my brother, but I've lost a name at the moment. In any event, I got to know him very well and we compared notes from time to time and he knew what I was doing over at Hopkins. Then I went from Hopkins to the British West Indies during the war as the us advisor for the Anglo American Caribbean Commission on the Control of venereal Disease. Spent two years there and then came back and operated two hospitals in North Carolina, one in Charlotte and one in the. And this is the time when I found it difficult to get between two hospitals that were 180 miles apart and work both places each day. So I bought myself an airplane and flew back and forth at noon every day and spent half a day in Charlotte and half a day Durham, and operated these two hospitals for a four year period. Then I was transferred to Washington in charge of the research for clinical laboratory, clinical procedures for control of venereal disease. This is probably where some people got some ideas too, I suppose, because I utilized some of my very basic training with Harry Eagle and decided that the treatment schedules that were advertised or promulgated by the vision of venereal disease needed to be cleaned up. They were not quantitative in any manner. They had been developed by stating that the treatment for venereal disease was effective at 3 million units of penicillin, or 5 million, or 1 million and a half. But this had no quantitation because the same dose was given to a 95 pound female or a 350 pound pound male. So we started, we introduced into the venereal Disease control centers treatment schedules based on amount of per kilogram and provided them with treatment schedules with the amount based on the weight of the patient. And we then came out with some treatment schedules that showed some very definite differences between the effectiveness of various amounts of penicillin per kilogram. About this time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=497.408,689.85"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Was that the days before acre was penicillin. At that time, was it in beeswax or oil or.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=689.85,696.426"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e At that time, penicillin was hardly available for use except under very unusual circumstances. We used, during those early days a lot of arsenic, and then we started using procaine, penicillin and in the beeswax. And the treatment schedules with penicillin were based on those primary. But we did do them in aqueous too. Okay, then it was about this time that I'm ashamed of myself. I can't remember. I can't recall.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=696.426,747.23"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e His names.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=747.23,749.278"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I can't recall the name of my friend.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=749.278,752.638"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Names we can fill in later we'll.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=752.638,754.254"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Fill it in as we go along here. In any event, he called me one day and said, ralph, I've got some problems and I've got to leave the communicable disease center. And he said, I would like to have you take over as chief of the laboratory branch at CDC if you're interested. And I said, well, sounds very interesting. I think I'd be very much interested. Let's talk about it and find out a little bit what the requirements are and what the outlook is. Sue Miller, Doctor Seward Miller. So we talked about it and the appointment was made and I came to CDC. But interestingly enough, again, he probably had no problem in selling the idea of my taking the position with the chief of CDC because the chief of CDC was then Doctor Randerleer, who was the individual who had started me in the service, so to speak. So that's how I got to CDC.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=754.254,834.43"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e The interesting thing is that ironically, if you stayed in the quarantine division, you'd have ended up in sooner or later anyway, since the quarantine division was eventually sent to CDC, it would have been.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=834.43,845.414"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e A very long time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=845.414,846.318"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e A very long time indeed. Secondly is regardless of who the people were that were involved in getting you to come to CDC, clearly you had the training and the qualifications that certainly headed you in that direction anyway.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=846.318,862.574"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e This is correct.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=862.574,863.454"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, very clearly you were headed in that direction very young, in fact, in your career.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=863.454,868.52"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, I started in laboratory work and early, actually I started in laboratory work before I even went into medicine. I spent every summer for three summers working at the Salt Lake General Hospital in their clinical laboratory while I was going to the university and taking bacteriology and clinical chemistry and so forth, so that I had a fairly sound basis in laboratory technology before I even went into medicine.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=868.52,905.784"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e And experience from all levels.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=905.784,907.504"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Right, right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=907.504,909.52"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, so when you arrived in 1950, then, CDC was still very young. And what type of an organization did you find? Did you have any surprises? Was it like you had thought it was going to be?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=909.52,922.904"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e No, there were no real surprises because I had been informed pretty much how it was. Of course, CDC was in a state of flux at that time. Item one, they weren't sure whether CDC was going to continue. There was a lot of thought about discontinuing CDC. Secondly, there was no base for CDC. We were operating in rented buildings, some downtown, some elsewhere, and they finally got space of a little greater magnitude in the Peachtree 7th street building. And that sort of made it look like CDC was going to be a little bit more static and then they started to develop plans for laboratory building at CDC. That, of course, if that were to come to fruition. We'd know that CDC then had longevity. But there was problems getting financing and approval of the CDC building. Even after we started to plan the building. Even after we had money to plan the building. There was no guarantee that there would be money to build the building. But the assistant chief of the laboratory branch, Doctor Wilton Fisher. Was assigned the task of working with the section chiefs. To develop the types of laboratories that would be needed. And to assign the spaces as reasonable and fairly as could be. For what we anticipated could be available from the possible potential plans.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=922.904,1044.669"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, the present Clifton road facilities were occupied in 59 and 60. How long prior to that did the actual planning begin? In other words, when was something first put on paper?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1044.669,1056.237"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e The actual planning started probably. And my memory isn't very good on this. But the actual planning started probably somewhere in about 54, 55. It went on for a long time. We had plans and we re planned and we re replanned. Until there were times we thought that this was just love's labor lost. That we were throwing our efforts away. And then suddenly money became available. And then we really had to scurry to bring those up to date. And I don't remember for sure what date that was. But as I recall, we moved into CDC here on Clifton Road. About latter part, 1958, if I recall.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1056.237,1113.08"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e That's right. It was a period there for about two years. That there was actual.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1113.08,1117.352"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e The laboratory branch moved in right along the first part. The group that moved in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1117.352,1123.194"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e I think the virology group moved in here in 1960 for Montgomery.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1123.194,1127.93"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e They were late moving in. We moved them in last. Because we had good facilities in Montgomery. And that was the greatest problem in making the transition. And so to make that transition, we're deviating a little bit here. But to make that transition. We established a clinical diagnostic laboratory for virology here. And really duplicated the work in Montgomery and CDC, Clifton Road for about a year. Before we felt the diagnostic facilities for virology. Were sufficiently developed here at Clifton Road. That we would have no problem making that shift. And as you well know, the reason for having some hesitancy about that. Was that virology, unlike bacteriology. Was in those days very much more difficult. And less well developed than bacteriology. And we couldn't just assume it would work satisfactorily. If we moved it lock, stock and barrel.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1127.93,1202.16"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e So you kept the service continued?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1202.16,1204.272"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e We kept.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1204.272,1204.672"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Even during the move.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1204.672,1205.736"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. We did some of it at Montgomery under those conditions, and we finally gradually switched it. So it was all coming in here at CDC?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1205.736,1218.12"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, there was certainly a. I'm sure there were days that you were indeed discouraged, but in the end, it certainly all turned out correctly. What was the early ideas regarding the site of the building? Was it always here on Clifton Road?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1218.12,1234.948"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e No, there were many sites that were looked at, but the Clifton Road site seemed to always sort of come to the top of the heap. And there are many reasons for that, I guess. And the most potent reason was that it was close to Emory. And we visualized that there would be a certain interrelationship between Emory and CDC. And I'm sure this has continued to this day. It started as we moved in. A number of us were appointed to the staff at Emory, and we had good personal relationships between the various departments over there. And even though we didn't have very much direct technical association, we did have a reasonable amount of, shall I say, word isn't mental, but I'll use it for the lack of a better one at the moment. We did have good inner thought process.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1234.948,1316.268"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e You've communicated well, if nothing else.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1316.268,1317.948"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e We communicated well. Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1317.948,1320.5"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e We, from the building, of course, which was a very important part of that era. But we started initially on the organization and what you saw when you were here and when you first came. Can we go back to the organization?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1320.5,1336.068"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, probably. This is pretty much the focus that we might take with this discussion, because it will involve, I believe, to a large degree, policy and directions that the organization took. When I first arrived here, to my recollection, there were four branches. There was the laboratory branch, the epidemiology branch, the engineering branch, the training branch, and then, you might say, a fifth branch, the administration executive group. Each one of these had individual troubles, and they were, all of us were searching for a place to work. The training branch was situated in one group of buildings downtown. Training in another group, epidemiology, another group and laboratory was almost entirely out in Chambly. So we had our problems from that standpoint. But I think it's imperative to point out that once a new director or new chief comes to an organization, there is, of necessity, some change in outlook. And while the emphasis had been placed almost entirely on some routine diagnostic work up to that time, most of it was placed on training, mostly in the sanitary type of bacteriology and other related activities there. Housing, training, and so on. And even though this were it, we had to decide what our total objectives were as far as the laboratory was concerned and the objective as far as the laboratory was concerned, was basically improve and develop a program that would be most helpful in identifying infectious diseases, controlling infectious diseases, and preventing infectious diseases. Now, how are we going to do this? This seemed to be the problem, and it seemed to me that the only approach there that made sense was to get everybody involved, because if the one thing we did not want to be, we did not want to have a CDC laboratory branch that was a national laboratory laboratory for the nation. This didn't make sense. We were a big nation. We couldn't handle that kind of stuff. If we tried to handle that type of load, we'd wind up being routine and could not carry out our objective. So we thought that the way to approach this was to break it down and have the states do what they could do within the states, the big cities do what they could do within the state, and the feds pick up the test. So we'd start basically for diagnostic services to go through a city to the state. What the state couldn't handle, we would pick up at the federal level. This was easier said than done because there was no coordination between state, city and federal, and there was little hope of getting that done because we had, every time we get the state laboratory, get in contact with state laboratory people, we had some of them who were very much unhappy with the federal approach to anything. They didn't, they wanted help, but only monetary help. They didn't want anybody telling them how to do anything. And there were three individuals who were primarily opposed to CDC or any other federal getting too involved with them. Doctor Hunter from Kansas was maybe the most vociferous. Doctor Damon from Indiana was next, but very vociferous. And thirdly, Doctor Hardy from Florida. Those three individuals were mavericks that wanted no part of CDC doing anything, really. And then they were supplemented to some extent by two or three other state laboratory directors who did not openly defy us, but they were not cooperative. This was New York and Michigan primarily, and to a lesser extent, California. Problem is, how do you get a group of individuals that are essential development of a network of laboratories in the country to reach our goals? And it seemed that the reasonable approach to that is to get those laboratory directors from each of the states to organize and then work with that organization to develop the plans and the laboratory services that we needed for the country. So in 1961, I mean, 1951 or early 52, I've forgotten the exact dates now. We had our first meeting of the state laboratory group with a very highly structured training session group with the type of seminars involved here. And while they were there had completed their seminars with us and we got them together and got them to pretty well finish their organization of state laboratories. And that wound up with the association of State and Territorial Laboratory directors.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1336.068,1759.24"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e How many participated, do you remember? Was it a good turnout?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1759.24,1762.232"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e We had a very good turnout. You can count them on the picture that I'm going to provide to you if you wish to. I believe they were all in that picture that you have, but about three without counting them. My recollection is that there were probably about 40 that were included in the group. We had definite majority. And this was the beginning of our working together. But our problems weren't over. Doctor Damon, Doctor Hunter, Doctor Hardy, and New York and Michigan were still. And we had our work cut out because we had to prove to that group of state laboratory directors that CDC was here to help them. Not to be dictatorial, not to be usurpative of their prerogatives, but here primarily to help them. And that was our basic function. And that, again, was no mean task. It took us a long time to do it. But it was done primarily by meeting with them, asking them for what their problems were and how we could help them. And then helping them where we could and telling them no where we couldn't. And we had to be quite direct on that. We couldn't allow them to try to push us into doing things that were counterproductive. But at the same time, we had to do what they needed done to gain their confidence. And over the years we were able to do that. I believe, and I believe that is the real basis for the development of our total program in a laboratory branch of CDC.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1762.232,1882.24"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e I think it's very, very interesting to go back and look at some of those early days because the foundation that was laid at that time, of course, makes it possible to take a lot of this for granted right now. And it really was apparently a very exciting and very challenging time and a very trying time at that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1882.24,1900.31"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I might point out here that after six, seven, eight years, our greatest champions were Doctor Hunter, Doctor Damon, Doctor Hardy. They had become. Learned to realize that we were here to be helpful. And they felt doing a job that they needed to have done for them. And they were real helpful.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1900.31,1928.792"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, you know, the other very interesting thing that some of the sort of the basic tenets that you described are still very much adhered to today. I mean, without, you know, one doesn't veer one way or the other. And I think it's seen this through a number of years without a doubt. So that's sort of the external organization that you had to get started then what about the internal organization here? I know that you were working.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1928.792,1952.576"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Here's a little anecdotal part that I need to tell you because it reflects how some of these things can sometimes go against you as well as for you. I had spent my entire time at CDC in developing a state laboratory director relationship favorable to CDC and vice versa. But then in 1961, when I decided to retire, I asked for voluntary retirement and the chief of CDC wrote a letter to the surgeon general pointing out that I had been successful, highly successful in developing an unusual working relationship with the state laboratory directors. And he didn't want that to discontinue. And he therefore recommended that I not be allowed to retire.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=1952.576,2011.09"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Obviously, you hadn't discussed this in advance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2011.09,2013.57"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I had discussed it with him. He knew I was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2013.57,2016.57"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Or you hadn't discussed that answer in advance?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2016.57,2018.898"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e No, I hadn't discussed the answer. But the surgeon general didn't agree with him and allowed you to go through.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2018.898,2027.39"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. Well, that's good. I remember at the time it was a great disappointment, in fact, that you did leave. I think that you were not only popular with the states, but you were also popular with the people in the laboratory branch. And so I think we would have felt the same way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2027.39,2044.734"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I appreciate those comments if there is anything that might have contributed to that. Again, one simple aphorism, I suppose you might say. If you expect to have a good staff, you support the staff, try to guide them into productive ways, but give them their head and let them work. And that's the only way you can get productivity. Sometimes you have to do a little guiding, but you have to be very tactful in how you do that guiding because any individual who is worth his salt has got his own ideas and he can't be deviated from his own ideas too much without losing his productivity.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2044.734,2097.963"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, and it certainly worked then, in very true words. Now right back again to the sort of the internal organization here that I know that there were real challenges on the outside, but I'm sure there were real challenges on the inside too that you were faced with.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2097.963,2116.82"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Do you have anything specific in mind?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2116.82,2118.564"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e No, I was just wondering at that time, CDC was still beginning to sort of organize itself and trying to decide what direction, I mean, externally and internally. But certainly the internal organization reflected what was thought to be the objectives and the mission of CDC.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2118.564,2136.984"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I think I can throw a little light on some of that. One of the things that fairly early came into view as necessity was the streamlining or improvement of efficiency of the operation of the laboratory. When I first arrived here, each of the little sections operating almost entirely as their own integral little activity. They sort of, for all intent and purpose, ordered their own glassware, their own media, they cleaned their own glassware, they took care of everything. And it began to be very evident that we were buying a large number of small bunches of glassware, small bunches of pipettes, small bunches of media, small bunches of animals. And by the small bunches was very expensive. So it was evident that we needed to set up some kind of a central operation that would service each of these laboratories. And of course, as you might guess, this met some opposition, because everybody who has his little domain doesn't like to lose even one person, particularly those who can be used for several things and may even be useful for errands and other things that a laboratory director might like to have. So we had problems, but we finally convinced them, although I'll have to admit that it was finally ultimatum, that this is the way it's going to be. We will buy all of the glassware for a central warehouse, and you can draw on that. We'll get what you want and be included in this, but it will be all in bulk orders. We will establish a central service. And as you probably know, we set up first small washing machines, and then we put up a monster and washed all of the glassware and distributed back to them. We started making media and distributed media to the laboratories. And this way they could get what they wanted when they wanted it, and in almost any amount. And it was very much more reasonable to have it accomplished. That was one problem, the inner development. And the other problems, of course, was where do we go in terms of expanding the needs for the control of communicable diseases? And obviously, one of the things that became almost imperative was to have reagents that could be depended upon to be effective and standard, so that each state would be referring in roughly the same manner. So out of that grew the necessity for each of our laboratories to make some standards available to the states from time to time. And when this became of a sufficient size, it was necessary then to establish a laboratory whose responsibility was to make diagnostic reagents and standardize those diagnostic reagents. But we tried to have that laboratory continue to work very carefully and very closely with the specialty laboratories, so that there was no slip ups and no failures. By the same token, of course, we had the same problem with animals, and we found it desirable to employ an animal husbandry man and start to breed our own animals, mice being the chief one of importance. If we bred our own animals, we had a standard group of animals that we could depend on as reacting almost identically from batch to batch, whereas when we were trying to buy them from animal breeders all over the country, we had all kinds of animals, and the results were not standardized. Besides that, it was much more economical to have a good breeding establishment of our own. So these were ways that the laboratory branch had to expand to take care of the needs to accomplish the objectives. Now, there was one other thing that I'm going to mention, because it is the only thing that I feel was a complete failure on my part as far as the program of the laboratory branch was concerned. Very early in the laboratory branch program, I felt it was imperative that, that we try to find out not only what the reaction of the bacteria, the protozoa, and the viruses were in the human body, but what the human body's reaction to them were, and what could we do to determine why some people got infections and why others didnt get infections, and if we could determine this, why we develop some sort of a program to help protect people from getting infections. This one I was absolutely unable to accomplish. There was never a meeting and never a budget meeting that I didnt try my best to get every section chief or anybody else who had an interest to come up with some suggestions that they would be willing to do. I even tried to outline some. I said, at least let's start with following a group of individuals and find out before they enter the program what their vitamin C level is, and then determine how many get a respiratory disease and what their vitamin C level is when they have that disease. Well, I knew there had been some work on vitamin C, for instance, that had shown this. And I also knew that there were vast data that suggested that a little fluoride in the water protected us against dental caries. So why isn't it possible for us to develop some information that would make it possible for us to help the body to prevent disease, as well as to prevent the body from becoming exposed to the disease? I could never accomplish that. I could never get anyone who either wanted to do it or who had an idea about it, or who was willing to even give it the slightest. I hope that things have changed and that maybe some people may be interested in doing this, because I think in the long run, this is just as important as the other things we've been doing.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2136.984,2653.49"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e So nothing in these last many years have changed your mind. I mean, you still feel this is very important part of prevention.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2653.49,2660.602"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I think as things have moved on, it is even more so because I'm positively convinced that, for instance, cancer is related to what we put into the body, or the absence of cancer is related to what we put in the body. Our problem is to find out what it is that we put in the body that helps us to ward off disease as well as allow that we don't put in, that allows us to acquire the disease.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2660.602,2694.86"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Clearly, particularly in cancer, risk factors are being recognized more and more as time goes on.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2694.86,2699.74"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e That's right. But even back to our original problem of communicable disease, we see every day many people exposed to the same disease, and only certain ones of them get it. There's got to be a reason, and all we've got to do is find the factors that are involved there. And I don't think this is impossible. It just means a lot of work.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2699.74,2724.356"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e That's right. And there are few diseases that we haven't asked that question. I think one of the problems is, though, is coming up with some real good approaches that can be handled with the budgetary requirements that you often are faced with.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2724.356,2738.602"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e This is true, but my failure was that I couldn't get anybody to start on it. And the starting is always the first point in getting a program involved, a successful program involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2738.602,2752.49"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, that's correct.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2752.49,2753.53"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e You got to get them started before you can accomplish it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2753.53,2755.65"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e At least you've got to get them interested in thinking in that direction.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2755.65,2759.178"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I could never do it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2759.178,2764.41"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e There must have been some, in fact, there were some very major disease outbreaks and events that were occurring during that time that certainly affected the laboratory branch, and I'm sure you personally in many ways, and one that comes to mind, of course, immediately is the influenza outbreak, the so called asian flu outbreak that occurred in 57. There was also, you were in the midst of the large polio outbreaks during that time. And so in many respects, it must have been very trying.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2764.41,2794.22"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it was extremely interesting, as well as trying the influenza outbreaks, excuse me, the influenza outbreaks were very interesting as well as challenging, because the first approach to them, if we were going to make any headway, was to identify what influenza we were involved with, what was producing the disease. Having found that, then one could attempt to undertake a vaccination program which might protect the people. And we were very heavily involved in these. We were designated as the regional laboratory, typing laboratory, and reference laboratory for the World Health Organization, and as such, worked with the other laboratories around the world in identifying the influenza viruses. And then later, of course, course the pharmaceutical companies could make the proper vaccines and as a result, I think we have been quite successful in controlling the large outbreaks of influenza over the last good number of years. So this was a very important one. We were very much involved in the polio outbreaks and we were very much involved in the attempt to produce attenuated polio viruses for use in vaccines. I'm just going to mention it here for what it's worth, and I'm not going to make any claims one way or another, but there were some people who felt that the final Sabin strains for the Sabin vaccine were mighty similar to the ones that we had developed at CDC. That's as far as I'm going. But we were interested in that. There were some attempts for CDC to be involved in some of the outbreaks, and this, again, particularly polio. And this will exemplify some of the intertained of epidemiology branch and the laboratory branch. I recall one outbreak of polio. I don't remember which town it was in now, but it was supposed to be a terrific outbreak. And the epidemiology branch sent, I believe, 25 people to this small town town and they were clamoring for the laboratory to be well represented out there and were very unhappy because we wouldn't send more than two individuals to go out. They wanted us to send total staff and a full laboratory to go out and work. The attitude of the laboratory branch was that we have good air service between any place. What we need to do first to establish is there an outbreak and what is that outbreak due to? We can go out with the epidemiologist, collect the specimens that are needed, get them back to a going laboratory and get the identification of the problem quicker in those surroundings than we could ever get by moving out a laboratory. And at the same time it's much more efficient. So I think this demonstrates the difference between the attitude and the approach of one group, namely epidemiologist and the laboratory. Now I want to hasten to say that although I considered Doctor Langmuir something of a showman, he wanted to put on a show out anywhere he had a possible outbreak for all the publicity that it was worth. Now this is, one has to give anyone his due. This is good for any organization to an extent, to have publicity. And I think that Doctor Langmuir did a remarkable job for CDC in developing an excellent epidemiological investigation service. And this can't be denied in any way, shape or form. We felt that he did this a little less efficiently than we could as far as the laboratory was concerned. This I would like to make another little anecdotal point on this. Not too long after this outbreak that I'm talking about occurred, a deputy director of the Communicable Disease Center, Doctor Vernon Link, who had previously been in the laboratory branch, actually as a director of our pleg laboratory, came out to Chambly to see me and said doctor Andrews has sent me over to ask you if you would be willing to take a transfer. And I said well Vernon, I hadn't been figuring on being transferred. Just what do you have in mind? And he said well, everybody isn't entirely satisfied with just what you're doing out here in the laboratory. And I said well, give me for an instance, because we're here to learn and to help as best we can. Well have any particular instance at the moment. But he said specifically we'd like to appoint Ralph Muckinfuss as the laboratory director. And the little light came in my head and I said, oh, Alex Langmuir would like to have his friend directing the laboratory. And he said maybe that's it. And he said but anyway, how about it? I said well, I hadn't figured out, let me think about it and I'll get back to you. So the next Monday I got on the plane and went to Washington and I went in to see my previous old boss, who was then chief of the Bureau of State Services, Doctor Otis Anderson. And I said Doctor Anderson, I hate to come in to see you, but I understand that you'd like me to the laboratory branch. And he says, what? And I said well, I understand that you'd like to appoint Ralph Muckin fussed and he said, I don't know Ralph Muckinfuss. And he said no, I don't know anything about that. He said, I want you to know right now that for the foreseeable future I would like you to stay at CDC. So I got on the plane and came back home and I never ever said anything to Vernon link, nor Vernon link never ever said anything more to.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=2794.22,3277.098"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Me, just never mentioned it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3277.098,3280.7"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e But it is interesting to note that over the years there has been some accommodation of those two attitudes. And hopefully it is for the best because I'm sure that Doctor Langmuir's approach needed some attention and Ralph Hogan's approach probably needed some attenuation.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3280.7,3310.66"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Very, very important, informative years. And you would expect a certain amount of that, without a doubt, differences of opinion. But on the scientific side it was also, other than outbreaks it was also very exciting from the scientific side, the discovery of particularly viral agents. At that time, it was just an explosion. All the parainfluenza viruses which had not been recognized before that time. In fact, the first para influenza you remember was called influenza D at the time and later found out to be a different group, the adenoviruses, just a whole group of them. Also at the same time, there were major techniques that came along that certainly must have changed the whole outlook and approach of the laboratory branch. Fluorescent antibody, for example, is one that was a major at the time. Any particular comments you would have or memories you have regarding that rapid explosion?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3310.66,3370.006"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes, just prior to that rapid explosion of the viruses, I think some of the most outstanding work and basic work that has ever been done in this country was done by Phil Edwards and his group in the Salmonella and Shigella and the pathogenic Enterocoli. Here was a group of organisms that produced horrendous degrees of illness, not only in this country, but all over the world. And there is no way in the world to follow an epidemic of those enteric outbreaks without knowing what kind of an organism you're dealing with. And the work of Edwards and group, Edwards and Ewing in typing, I don't know how many there are now. There are about 80 types when I left CDC. There's probably 150 by now. By typing those and categorizing them all in their nice little places, it's possible to follow an epidemic and get it under control, to identify what it is that might be the source of the epidemic and control that. So I think that in the bacteriological side, this was perhaps one of the most outstanding contributions from CDC in that excessive amount of developmental work in enteric bacteriology. Then, of course, as we moved into the virology, those rapid developments and discoveries came primarily from the fact that we were able to develop nice tissue culture approaches. And tissue culture was never, while it has been used to, to some extent for the last hundred years, so to speak, it was only usable for a few hours because as soon as bacterial contamination took place, the tissue culture was over, no further potential use. But with the advent of antibiotics, it was possible to control the bacterial contamination in the viral culture and to allow the viruses to grow out without any competition and allow the tissue cultures to continue to grow to their full development without killing the tissue culture by bacterial infection. So with that background of antibiotics, the whole picture of virology changed in those few years. And we have literally hundreds of viruses that have been identified, categorized, and many of which we now know how to control the diseases that they produce.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3370.006,3563.17"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Interestingly, Harry Eagle that you mentioned earlier played a major role in the application of tissue culture in the laboratory and making it a routine tool.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3563.17,3573.69"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I don't know whether I should say this or not, but I think I find it so interesting that I'm attempted to say it, and you can cut it out if you want. You know, Harry Eagle was so productive that he was into everything in tissue culture and in virology. And there was a company in Bethesda, Maryland, that manufactured all kinds of tissue culture, nutrients, and other related diagnostic viral reagents. And Harry Eagle was, I guess, their by far most productive consultant. And every time he was paid off, he took it in stock. And finally, as the government always does, you know, they start to investigate people, and they found out there was a conflict of interest, presumably, between Harry Eagles work for microbiological associates and the National Institutes of Health and his activities. So he was ordered to divest himself of the stock. And I can't vouch for this, no. But the rumor has. The rumor was that he was paid $9 million for his stock. So not only was my friend Harry Eagle a tremendous scientist, and I believe he was one of the best scientist that I have ever known, but he also knew how to be a good businessman. Right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3573.69,3690.53"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e But again, the technique of fluorescent antibody, which was a very interesting sort of era, because everything normally one uses a technique to work with an agent. All of a sudden, here came a technique that could be used throughout the laboratory branch and throughout so many areas in the laboratory. And so it almost became the technique itself, which was so important, rather than what you did with it, rather than its application.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3690.53,3720.284"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Right. There are two applications that come to mind. Well, one application, but the same, but multiple variations of it. Rather early in the fluorescent antibody technique development, there was a suspected outbreak of plague in western United States. And with the fluorescent antibody technique, it was very simple to almost immediately identify or to point out that this was not playing out west, because the minute you have the organism and expose it to the fluorescent antibody, you can either identify it as plague or not plague. And the other one that was highly desirable to have a quick reference was tularemia, a similar type of organism, but something that needed to be identified right quickly. And the technique lended itself very well to those particular organisms, as well as quite a number of others.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3720.284,3800.72"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e We've been talking here quite a while about what your experiences were, and now 25 to 30 years ago, and it seems that in many respects, things haven't changed. There's certainly still the same relationships that we have with the public health community, with the states that we've expanded somewhat. We're dealing with, in many ways, newer technologies, some of the same, clearly the same objectives you have, we still have now, except maybe it's a little different technology that we're dealing with. And so certainly the advice that you gave then was very good, and I'm sure the advice you would give now would be equally good. Do you have any particular advice for us now? And do you see anything that CDC should be considering? What would be your opinion?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3800.72,3856.34"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, let me see here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3856.34,3858.068"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Some 25 years after you've gone, let.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3858.068,3860.622"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Me see if I can. I don't know whether you would like to read this or not. Obviously I'm not going to read it, but here is a very interesting little piece of work done by an epidemic intelligence officer. His name was Doctor Stanley music. He was assigned to me as an EIS officer when I was epidemiologist Florida, and he was with me for 1971 and 72. And at the end of his term he wrote a very detailed and long description of all of the staff and the situation at the state of Florida that would be useful for an EIS officer to be signed following him. And in that he describes Ralph Hogan. Now I'm not necessarily pleased with this description, but I can't say that it is not, that. It is very wrong. If you want to read that, it goes from here to here. And that will bring up a point that I would like to make for as a response to your question.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3860.622,3940.89"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay, next in line down the chain of command is Doctor Ralph B. Hogan is just a fantastic person. He's a bit of a gray ghost tending to blend with the furniture and other people in a crowd. He does not dress or behave in any way so as to stand out. He's an incredible patient listener and philosophically analytical beyond belief. However, he won't tell you anything unless you ask him. Ralph got his MPH from Hopkins in 1939 and has been a public health doctor ever since. He organized the original laboratory at CDC in Atlanta when it was a far smaller facility than it is now. And he is to laboratory branch at CDC what Alex Langmuir is to the EPI program. He built it, organized it, and saw it through its first growing pains. Ralph will be here for another three years and plans to retire at the end of that time. So he will be here throughout your entire tenure. He's a good guy and has an interesting streak of conservatism, which many times you will find highly beneficial. Ralph's first reaction to a question is always no, because he reasons that you can say yes after you've said no without making any enemies. But it is very difficult to do it the other way around. He will never make a promise he can't keep and keep every promise he makes. He loves to do administration and will do all the paperwork. Are you still available? And the budgets. And leave you free for a lot of epidemiology. However, he loves to know what's going on as much as Skeeter does. And your relationship with Ralph and Skeeter should be one of three co equal epidemiologists. That's very nice. That's a very stan, by the way. Still here. Oh, isn't it? Yes, and I certainly pass this on to him. That is very, very nice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=3940.89,4052.104"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I think that, while I say, I'm not necessarily flattered or otherwise by it, but I do think it's probably a fairly accurate description, and it does bring out what I personally feel is the most important characteristic that any administrator can have. And that is not quite as he described it here. Not any question is no. But if there is a decision in which there is any possibility of or nonconformity, your first. And if you must give an answer, that the answer must be no, because there is no question but what. It is easy to say yes after you have said no. But you can never say no after you have said yes without hurting the individual and also losing your own credibility. Credibility. This, I think, is the most important thing that can be passed on to anyone.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=4052.104,4129.05"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Very good advice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=4129.05,4131.89"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e If anything, stood me in good stead, it has been that, as you probably know, it's just human nature to not be resentful, but to say, gee, I beat him, when you turn around and say, okay, yes, you've convinced me. Because then the one who has convinced him feels he's won his battle and you have lost your battle. But to the boss, it doesn't make any difference whether you lost a battle. All you want to do is to win the war.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=4131.89,4163.9"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Right? Absolutely. Well, thank you very, very much. I'm glad, certainly glad that you didn't say no this afternoon. Or maybe you did when. When Gail first contacted you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=4163.9,4173.312"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e No, I didn't say no.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=4173.312,4175.256"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e But thank you very much again for consenting to the interview, and I think this has been a very nice session. Thank you very much.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445#t=4175.256,4187.756"}]},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132666/file/247445/transcript/68956/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/068/956/original/transcript_1765569683.vtt20251212-2593616-t3dzf9.vtt20251212-2593616-t3dzf9?1765569683","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/068/956/original/transcript_1765569683.vtt20251212-2593616-t3dzf9.vtt20251212-2593616-t3dzf9?1765569683"}]}]}]}