{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/qr4nk37x5h/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Henderson, Donald \"D.A.\""]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/289/original/CDCM_Mark_2.1.png?1728486742","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["David J. Sencer CDC Museum"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2012-04-12"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["Dr. D.A. Henderson, EIS Class of 1955 describes his roles in the early days of CDC and his relationship with Alex Langmuir. Interviewed by Karen Torghele"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["audio"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["oral history"]}}],"summary":{"en":["Dr. D.A. Henderson, EIS Class of 1955 describes his roles in the early days of CDC and his relationship with Alex Langmuir. Interviewed by Karen Torghele"]},"provider":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["David J. Sencer CDC Museum"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["David J. Sencer CDC Museum"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/289/original/CDCM_Mark_2.1.png?1728486742","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/247/444/small/HendersonDonaldDA.jpg?1727919332","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - 20120412_Henderson_Donald.mp3"]},"duration":6925.85021,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/247/444/small/HendersonDonaldDA.jpg?1727919332","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-globalhealthchronicles.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/247/444/original/20120412_Henderson_Donald.mp3?1722773419","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":6925.85021,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["[AssemblyAI Transcript] 20120412 Henderson, Donald [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4.4,4.934"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e This is Karen Torghaili. It's April 12, 2012. I'm in Baltimore at the office of Da Henderson, and he is now the. I will let you introduce yourself. I'll let you introduce yourself and tell what your current position is. And also, I wanted to be sure that it's okay that we record this interview.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4.934,30.25"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e You record the interview. Oh, fine. No, I hereby give permission to use this interview in any appropriate way that you choose. I am Da Henderson. I am listed as a distinguished scholar at the center for Biosecurity, which I founded in 1998 and which has prospered ever since. I am a professor of medicine and public health at the University of Pittsburgh and University Distinguished Service professor at Johns Hopkins University.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=30.25,71.22"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e And you have awards too numerous to even mention. I was wondering about how you would get them all under walls, but I bet you don't have nearly all of them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=71.22,80.124"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, no, no, no. These are really just a few. There are books up there. When I went to the White House, they said, if you have any things that you can put up on your walls which indicate you have been received rewards or what have you, this will be important because people here, they pay a lot of attention to this sort of thing. I thought, oh, my goodness. So sure, I brought a whole lot of men and got all these framed, and I guess people were impressed. I don't know. As I went along, I decided that really wasn't that important, but I didn't know. And of course, I have a number of honorary degrees, and each one of those carries something and a number of other awards, so there's quite a number of them. So eventually, when I came back here, I taken most of these out of the frames and just left a few up.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=80.124,145.92"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e They're nice looking, and the ones that are not framed, that are standalone are really interesting looking.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=145.92,154.376"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, well, there's one there which I'm really very proud of. It says the presidential medal of Freedom. And then there's the national Medal of science, which I also received. And then the National Academy of Sciences has one medal, which is the one that they give. It's their personal medal. It's the only one. It's called the Public Welfare Medal, which has been given for, goes back well before Herbert Hoover, and I'm not sure when it started, and they were accustomed to giving one a year, so I got that. And that was a very, very welcome piece.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=154.376,207.69"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e As I was explaining to you before, I know that we have recordings of you talking about smallpox, and I know that you've talked about that in a number of interviews. So what we wanted to focus on was your other experiences and anything you might know about the beginnings of the Centers for Disease Control, which was known as the Communicable Disease center when it began, and the malaria control and war areas organizations. And even though you were too young to have been there yourself, I know that you interacted with some of the people who were there. So if you could talk about what you do know about that and your reflections about it, that would be very interesting.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=207.69,253.05"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay. I came to CDC in June of 1955 from, I'd been an intern at the marriage Emma Jean Bassett Hospital in Cooperstown. Before that, I was recruited by a man who at that time was the chief EIS officer named Ira Myers, who had serving his two year stint of duty in the public health service. When he came to Cooperstown, he was advised everyone that you had an option, you had to serve military. We had to serve uniform service duty, two years, and you could do that within the Public health service, which I knew nothing about at the communicable disease center, which I knew nothing about, and neither did any of the senior staff of the hospital. CDC was little known at that point. I was not interested in infectious diseases, to tell you the truth. I really was mainly thinking of being an internist and cardiologist, and I didn't like infectious diseases, particularly because you get a little kid and has got a rash and what have you, the rash never looks like anything in the book, and the kid is squirming around and you can't determine what the symptoms are. This is most infectious disease cases. My view at that point were in that category, and I really didn't think this would be very good for me. Besides which, I wasn't very good at trying to give intravenous objections to young kids. I never was very good at that. And I figured, I think I better be an adult doc. But on the other hand, this looked like an interesting approach. And I figured with one year of internship going into the military services, I'd probably wind up giving entry level physicals to all sorts of recruits. And I couldn't think of anything that could be more dull. And so, however, he talked about that we'd go on epidemics and a number of interesting field experiences one could have in learning about infectious diseases. And I finally decided, well, this is two years. I might learn something that would be of value, and it would not be two years spent in some sort of idle duty, which would not really be very helpful to progressive understanding of medicine. And so he asked about what experience. I had infectious diseases, and here I was kind of caught. But I did do one thing. I said that I'd won the George Corner History of Medicine Prize at the University of Rochester, which, in truth, they gave dollar 200 and a little certificate for the best treatise on an historical subject in medicine. And it happened that there was a book called Grandfather Tales, which was very. Was tales of upstate New York, which a very well read book and read very well. And I was intrigued by the cholera epidemic, which had struck in 1832. And I thought, well, you know, I could write a treatise on that, because one could get information, I think, from newspapers and what have you, and I really could. It might be kind of interesting. Besides which, there's a $200 prize that went with this, which for us at that time was a huge amount of money. So that's what I did. And I went through the newspapers, and I was writing up about cases, and they had indication of where they were located, their address. I mean, a lot of information provided. I was surprised. So you could make a spot map of the city. I could even draw a curve, like an epidemic curve. And this was my. I had fun. This was really kind of interesting. And really I was getting as an introduction to epidemiology, because we had no course like this in medical school. So I knew nothing about the subject, but that looked like fun. So I wrote the treatise. I think it was the only one that did. But at any rate, I got the prize. So I told the guy who was recruiting, I said, you know, I'm very interested in cholera. And I written this and gotten the George Corner Prize for a treatise in cholera. Well, he seemed very impressed. At any rate, I got accepted for going to Atlanta and maybe under false pretenses. At any rate, I wound up there in 1955, and this was only the fourth class. And up to that time, the I s was we did this one month training, which was a combination of epidemiology and biostatistics. Originally teaching this were people from Johns Hopkins, because Alex had very few staff. He had very few staff, and he, Alex Langmuir. And so he did a certain amount of teaching himself, but he needed help. And then after I came, he pretty much switched over so that we ourselves, EIS officers, were taking a major responsibility in teaching as well. But it was new enough at that point that it was just beginning to coalesce. And what one does each year is to have a session. I think it was in April, usually at the EIS conference as it was held, where the new officers would be there and the jobs that were available positions were identified, and it was like a matching program. I'd become fascinated, I must confess, with administration itself. I'd gotten involved in college being editor of a yearbook, which was quite an enterprise, and a number of people working on the book. And it was creative to have these different people with different talents and putting together a book was really great fun. And I then went on with my roommate to found a radio station at Oberlin, which still exists today. And that took me into the realm of more organization, and I recruitment and a whole lot of things. So I went to medical school. I thought, you know, I wonder how you get to be a dean. So I talked to the dean at Rochester, and he was new at that time, third year of medicine, and we had a new dean. So I was chatting with him one day and said, how do you get to become a dean of. And he said, don't think about it until you're ready to retire. He said, you'll use up all of your scientific credentials and understanding, and there's nothing to do at that point but retire, so don't become a dean. And actually, I did take that advice later on for a couple of offers that were made of and did not become a dean. At any rate, there was a position open called assistant chief EIS officer, and it was said to be, you'd be sort of a gopher. You'd do some of the training and what have you and arrange recruitment and screening of officers coming in, so forth. So I thought, well, why not? It's an administrative kind of operation, and it'll give me a chance to explore further whether I wanted to take that route. And so I did, and we no more than finished the course, and several of us were sent off to an epidemic of diphtheria in Alabama. So I was down there for a couple, three weeks and came back, and here is Ira Myers, the chief EIS officer, putting all his books in boxes. And I said, what are you doing? He said, I have a new job. I said, I'm going to be the commissioner of health for the state of Alabama. And I said, well, where does this leave me? And he said, well, I guess you're the chief Eis officer, aren't you? I don't know even where the files are. I don't have an idea of what I'm supposed to do. I said, ah, you'll learn. And off he went. And so suddenly I was the chief EIS officer, quote unquote, but basically serving as a sort of deputy or assistant to Alex Langmuir, which was a great experience because Alex was a teacher par excellence. He was difficult, he was charming, and I must say, he had lots of ideas. A very stimulating guy to work with. Some did not get along well with Alex, but I must say I really did. And he was really my mentor for the next twelve to 20 years. Wonderful man. So that was from Alex. During the time that I was two years then at CDC as EIS, that was my job. And then during that time, we actually, Alex and I were talking about the problem of retaining people, because most of the people that we recruited were individuals whose goal, academic goal, was to be in academic medicine, really in medicine or pediatrics. A few were interested in practice, but most of them were quite high in their classes and they were really academically inclined to. And the question was, how do you keep people on beyond the two years? So we talked about it, and I tried the idea of a five year program, that there would be two years in which you could do training of whatever you wanted to do, like you want to go and be resident in neurology somewhere, or whatever you could do. What was your choice? Then there'd be two years at CDC, which would be purely on the option of the director of the department of epidemiology, and then a fifth year, which would be an optional year, which would be taken at mutual discretion. So we wrote it up and sent it up to the surgeon general and got the word back, accepted. We think it's a great idea. So I promptly applied. And Phil Brockman was another one that came in under that same bit. And I don't know who else did, but at least I'm sure there were.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=253.05,1045.786"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Others, was he was Phil Brocklin in your class?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1045.786,1048.818"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e He was a year ahead. Phil Brockman was ahead. And Neil Nathanson, whom I saw quite a bit of at that time as well. So I went off for my three years and did two years of internal medicine at the Bassett hospital and then decided that at that time, there was a lot said about the fact by the surgeon general, and indeed, it was also said by McFarland Burnett, a Nobel laureate, that we have come to the end of an era, an era of infectious diseases, and the future is in the chronic diseases and long term efforts in that area, and that this will mark the end of an era. And indeed, there were many changes that taken place with vaccines, with antibiotics, with medical care and what have you. And so I thought, well, I think I better see what I can do about getting some training in chronic disease epidemiology and so I approached Abraham Lilienfeld, who was head of epidemiology at Hopkins and an old friend, and talked to him about coming down and being a fellow in this department. Specialize in heart epidemiology, Abe? Yeah, Abe did a lot in that he was probably one of the leading chronic disease epidemiologists at that time and a great teacher. So I came down to Hopkins, and he said, well, why don't you get an MPH degree? And I said, I don't see any reason, Alex, for getting it. I said, yeah, but look, you can take a couple of courses here and I can fill out the rest. So I had an office in the school, and, which is very unusual, students don't get offices. But I shared an office with one of these younger professors and spent a good part of the year in chronic disease epidemiology and decided at the end of two years, it's really not for me. It takes patience. It takes a lot of very careful work. I don't know how many studies that I've vetted, which ask very excellent questions, got so far along. And then five years into it, realized that the real question that they should have asked at the beginning, they didn't. And it sort of makes the whole study much less valuable. So I thought, you know, this chronic disease epidemiology, I think, is for somebody else. It's not for me. And so I decided with that that I would plan on a career with CDC. And so I just stayed on for the. Since that time. I'd come back to CDC in 1960, and at that time worked as sort of an assistant to Alex and then took over chief of surveillance section. The other half of the operation that, say, the Atlanta based people, was Phil Brockman, who was head of what we called, I think, the laboratory division or whatever it was under epidemiology. So during this time, whatever I learned about CDC Washington during his time with Alex, and we talked about many things, but how much I can tell you about what happened before he came along. We didn't really go into that all that much.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1048.818,1307.246"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Did he ever talk about outbreak investigations before 1950, for instance, the polio outbreak in Ohio? Ohio, or the outbreak of smallpox in 1947 in the states?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1307.246,1321.64"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e No, I'm not sure that he. Whether he had anything to do with that. He did. He was doing a lot of field work. He had been at the New York state health department, and he was part of the group that was a pneumonia group, I think it was called what they would do. They had a pneumonia antiserum, and when they got a case of pneumonia. Then they had to type the organism the type, and then they would have the proper type of antiserum for it. And he did a number of. Quite a number of field investigations in state of New York and New York. I think it had some very good people who were working there, and it was a very good health department. And this is where I think Alex was very much turned on the idea, onto the idea of a focus on field epidemiology. He himself really enjoyed this time, there's no question about it. And so heavy emphasis for eis was the field experience. He was a very good coach and mentor for those going into the field.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1321.64,1399.38"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I think I read that for the first time, the term shiny pants epidemiologist versus field epidemiologist. And it was in your book or an interview that you did. I had not heard that term before.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1399.38,1416.42"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I think we used it number of occasions, and I can't tell you where it got started. But there was the only logical thing that you could see as a counterpart to the shoe leather epidemiologist was the shiny pants epidemiologist. And I must say those who were active as shoe leather epidemiologists were always a little bit scornful of those who never got there shoes muddy at all. Alex did one other thing as a part of the course that you had to. The group had to design a survey to go out in the field, go door to door and get information on x. And, yeah, it was an exercise designed to get everybody out into the field and kind of get a sense of what it was like, which is a neat idea. You couldn't do that today because you'd have to go through all of the. By the time you get through the committees and everything else, I'm afraid it wouldn't work. But it didn't. It worked very well there. And I think many of us, you kind of lost a reticence when you have, you have to do it at least once, and you begin to realize that it's not so difficult to approach people, to introduce yourself, talk about what you're doing and try to get some cooperation. And I think that was a very useful exercise.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1416.42,1527.04"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Now, when you took your eis course, you had Lillian Feldfield and Doctor Langmuir for teachers to member authors.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1527.04,1547.2"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, there was some teaching done by Bob Serflingen and Ida Sherman, who were statisticians with us. Both of them were really very capable people, very low key, but they were very, very capable. They did some teaching, but for the life of me, I'm afraid I can't.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1547.2,1572.47"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Were there messages that stuck out in your mind that Langmuir left with you all when he gave his instructions to us EIS officers? Were there things that Doctor Langmuir said?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1572.47,1587.52"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e There were some things that he was that I thought were very appropriate. And one, for example, was always bear in mind when you're being asked for an interview, that your salary is paid by the government, that you have a responsibility to communicate to the people of this country. And reporters do a lot of this, so that you should always try to respond to press queries and try to help them understand what you're doing and what you're finding, which I've adhered to that advice ever since, and I seldom will turn down a reporter. And some of them, you have to do a lot of education to get them into understanding what you're doing. But I think in the long run it's been useful. So this is one. He also was very strict on another thing, and that is that when we worked at a state, let's say we were with a state epidemiologist and maybe in a city or what have you, and working with their staff that make it very clear that you're gathering information, you're developing a paper. They the question of who should have principal authorship on that paper should be made by the people who are in charge of the state, of the state or the city, and that these people are there, this is their job, and you are just in and out. But they've got the long term continuity, so they have to be seen as the lead people and the responsible people, because this is in the interests of the longer term public health in the community. And that is something that has been, I think, regrettably not adhered to to the extent it needs to be even now at CDC. But I think this was a very important advice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1587.52,1734.72"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e So he was the one who started the methodology of working with state and local health departments and countries, I assume fairly early on, of making yourself available, but not taking the role as being the authority figure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1734.72,1754.32"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I think the genesis of the, what became known as the epidemic aid call, the national institutes of Health, customarily would be called on various outbreaks that occurred and might be requested, or might not, but often were requested to participate. Sometimes they would, sometimes they wouldn't have. But there were a number of queries for help came from states to NIH, and they did not respond to too many. So the question of being immediately responsive to a state for any request was Alex's idea of what should the. Should be done by the epidemiology branch, CDC, so that we should respond and respond promptly. And if we, from that experience, data emerge, that's valuable for a paper, that's fine, but if it's not, you're really providing a service to the states, and service to the states was really the key item. And I think this then ran into difficulty with the people at NIH. And this was the genesis of the memo. And what he did then we wrote up became common. What would we call it, the aid memo, whatever it is you wrote up, who you got the call from, what the information was, who's going out to do something, so forth. And the distribution list was incredible as it went to the head of NIH, which was the key of this, because then he said, look, we're putting this memo out, and we would welcome anybody from NIH joining with us on that, but we're letting you know what we're doing so that if there were particular interests that NIH had, they could be accommodated. And that was the genesis of it. And the. The aid memo then went also to the surgeon general and chief of Bureau of State Services. And it was a whole raft of people that got it, and it was very useful, and it became quite a common device for informing people of what we were up to. And it had some positive values.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1754.32,1946.94"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e That initially, NIH had the right of first refusal.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1946.94,1950.404"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e That's right. Nih had the right of. He made this very clear, as he told me in negotiating it with him, that whatever came up, certainly NiH had the right of first refusal. But as I asked him at one time, has this ever happened? And he said, I don't know of anything. I don't know that it's ever happened to. But that was. That placated them at that point. And nobody seemed particularly distressed for a long time. There was never a paper written jointly by somebody at CDC and NIH, however, and I think the first one, at least, that was what was talked about at the time, was my paper on a disease which was epidemic neuromyasthenia, as we called it. As we dubbed it. The syndrome is actually called chronic fatigue syndrome at this point. But we had an outbreak in Punta Gorda, Florida, and I went down with one of our EIS officers named David Poskancer, and we had an outbreak of quite a number of cases, a lot of people with this really mysterious disease and really sick. And we did neurological examinations which turned out they were really quite bizarre in certain aspects. We even had the head of neurology from Duke come down, review a number of patients with us. He was equally baffled. So this I eventually wrote up as a paper on epidemic neuromyasthenia. And there was a man by the name of Alexis Shelikoff who was in NIH at the time. I think he was in the Bureau of Biologics at the time, if I'm not mistaken. And he had become very interested in this disease and had done a lot of work getting. Going back into the papers that have been published before, including a large outbreak in what was called poliomyelitis in Los Angeles. But quite clearly was this. This was back in the 1930s, thirties, or something like that. So Alexis and I then decided to write a medical progress review for the New England Journal, which the New England journal did regularly at that time. And he was going to be the senior author, but he came down with hepatitis and he was really out of commission for a while. And he said, why don't you write it and you be senior author? Which is very generous. So I wrote the medical progress report, and it had cleared through CDC and NIH. And at that time, there were those. It was 1959, I think, 1990, 1959. It was regarded, I think, as the first paper in which NIH and CDC had actually collaborated. Not that there was hostility. I just don't think that things had just not come. The events had not transpired in a way that brought them together. But at any rate, there was a certain amount of conversation about it, because this was something unusual. Now, there was something that I think would be interesting, from my understanding of talking with Alex. And there was a man by the name of Justin Andrews who had been responsible for a lot. And Justin was. I saw him not infrequently with Alex and various discussions, but it was quite clear that CDC was feeling very unsure of themselves. And here they were in Atlanta. We were in rented offices space in Peachtree. And there's a question of whether CDC would survive as an entity. And so here we were. We had the remnants of the malaria control, MCWA, and they were largely down in Savannah. We had some virology over in Montgomery. We had the office space in downtown Atlanta. And I think the concern was almost any time could all be folded up. So the idea of a building was very important. The idea that there would be a building and on the adjacent to Emory was a very important issue. And I don't know what all went on in terms of getting the money and persuading the powers that be. But quite clearly, we moved in in 1960. I just come back from residency so I was one of the first residents in that building. And I think there was a general feeling on the part of those in the hierarchy of PHS that now CDC was a permanent entity.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=1950.404,2315.37"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Now that it had a building.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2315.37,2316.778"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Now that it had a building.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2316.778,2319.13"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Interesting. Another thing I was thinking about as you were talking that relates to the work that you did later. There was a way of working with other entities that involved their methodology of offering help without taking over, letting the people who live there take ownership of it. And I wondered if and how that prepared you for working with smallpox and later other diseases, and if you adopted that philosophy as well and how you think that worked.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2319.13,2365.62"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I'd say, as we were going along, Alex did assign EIS officers to several laboratories where work was going on in polio. And I think, as a matter of fact, I should note from discussions with Alex and with others, that the real turning point for CDC was the SoC polio episode. And I saw a good bit of Alex during that period. I had just come into the service, and the cases had already begun to occur. There were two people, Neil Nathanson and Jack hall were two EIS officers assigned full time to this. They just. Just come aboard, and they were the whole statistical bureau and the cases. There was an effort then made to run down each of the cases and try to get full histories of the cases and so forth, and to find out what the lot numbers were that were involved. And as the minute the. Or very soon after the cases began to occur, all polio vaccination stopped. And so there was real concern, a lot of alarm. It was a question, is this widespread, and is it all manufacturers, or. And is it that manufacturer and all of the product, or what? And so the material was coming in. Alex set out to bring, get the material, and it would be in on cases and what have you. And for a period of time, reports were made every day. There were mimeographed reports which went out every day. And Alex took the view that we should be open, we should make this available, that there will be much less in the way of apprehension if people are confident that we are making available all that we know, and that this will be more reassuring than anything. And I know that he had a number of visits to Washington on demand that they wanted to talk it over, and they didn't want this going out this way. The argument was that we are alarming the people by reporting all these cases. And Alex is saying, no, if it's clear that we are authoritative and giving everything that is possibly there, that this is going to be reassuring. And so as it soon began to. And then Alex was really consulting with the surgeon general on frequent occasions here. And eventually, and it wasn't very long before they were able to, the cutter vaccine was off the market, but they began vaccinating again fairly quickly, and they'd run down the problems with Qatar, and it was. Confidence was restored enough by that autumn that vaccination was going ahead. I think the point that he was making was that this getting the surveillance, the data, the cases currently and getting it back, that it had a very positive value. And in this, of course, we hear you are working with everybody to try to get information and try to bring it in. So I think that it was said afterwards by many that in a way, this made the point. Could anybody else really have done this, such as NIH or what have you? They weren't really set up to do it or organized to do it. Alex, meanwhile, was involved in trying to get an epidemiologist named in every state, because in many states there were people who had different titles, but he wanted the epidemiologist designated by the state. So it might be a veterinarian, it might be a physician, might be people in a state who would have different titles, might even look differently by title than an epidemiologist. But the idea of having a designated person in every state who was responsible, with whom he communicated, and which the health officers agreed. And of course, that began the association of state and territorial Epidemiologists. And that was Alex's push to get that done, because originally there was really a kind of a mixture of people who were involved.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2365.62,2700.82"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Do you remember any of the early people who were in that organization? Cste?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2700.82,2707.58"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I think one of the ones he thought a lot of was mortal, I think. What's Bob corns? And he was in Albany.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2707.58,2719.5"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I don't imagine there's any left around.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2719.5,2722.988"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e No, no. In fact, there's been a. There's a turnover in state epidemiologists. Ace Hollister, I think, what his first name is in California, but he's always. Everybody knew him as Ace Hollistere. I certainly remember him very well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2722.988,2744.36"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I thought it would be interesting to interview there and see what their perspective was on working with CDC.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2744.36,2750.472"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, there are. I would be very doubtful anywhere around. The only person I can think of who was around for a long time, longer than I was, was Jim Steele.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2750.472,2762.416"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I've talked to him.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2762.416,2763.496"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Have you? And I don't remember what year he came there. He may have been there before I was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2763.496,2772.25"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e He came in the late forties.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2772.25,2773.714"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2773.714,2774.33"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e He did Eis later, though. But he was the first veterinarian and introduced the idea of zoonotic diseases in the transfer between animals and people.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2774.33,2785.778"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e That's right. No, he was looking at this one medicine concept long before anybody. He was outstanding. Yeah. No, he was marvelous and did a great job. And I really had from that, I had really an impression of the veterinarians, which was very positive. And in fact, when time went on, it became apparent to me that we often did better with veterinarians than physicians in training them in epidemiology, because veterinarians think in terms of herds and numbers. We think of individual cases of illness, and for them it seemed like very easy to transmit. And so we've had some very good veterinarians who turned up in this area. And then Jim Steele was his mentor, somebody whom he looked up to, I got to know somewhat, but it was a guy by the name of KF Meyer, who was out at the Hooper foundation in University of California. And KF was in his Basel English, Swiss Basel English, very expressive. And I remember having him at a. He could talk very eloquently. And I remember we had him for a dinner meeting at the EIS conference, and I think he went on for three and a half hours. And I must say, at the end, I was still fascinated. I don't think anybody was bored. But he was just such an intriguing character. And he. When I remember when he came, I was going to introduce him, and I said to Jim, what do I say about KF? I mean, he's quite a remarkable guy, and I've got some studies on brucellosis. Do you think he know anything about brucellosis? I'll never forget Jim's comment. He says, who do you think named the disease? Oh, my God, it was kf minor. Oh, I must say. Talk about a retort. Who do you think named the disease?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2785.778,2941.53"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Interesting. Do you remember, I'm going back to sort of malaria topics now. Do you remember when Silent Spring came, came out and the impact that had on public health?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2941.53,2957.93"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I remember it came out. I don't think it really had an impression on us. We weren't dealing with really control, with insecticides, the malaria people. I mean, this was very important, but this was something of interest if you're interested in ecology, environmental issues. But I really wasn't that much into it, so it didn't really make much of an impression as far as I was concerned. But the early days of, you probably have heard the early days with Alex and the malaria cases. Because I was involved as the chief EIS officer, I was also sort of like, doing general surveillance and other things. The malaria issue was an interesting one, and it became apparent that there were huge numbers of cases of malaria being reported, huge numbers. And then Alex, working with this group of epidemiologists, really, he gave them the responsibility for deciding what they would report. So the decisions of what is included, that comes in weekly for the MMWR. That's a decision of the epidemiologists, what they're going to report state epidemiologists. Right. And somewhere along, there was a decision made that. And he couldn't come down as a fiat, did you have to do this or do that? But he began pushing the idea that malaria cases should be confirmed and pressing them in various ways to, let's get confirmed cases. And it soon became apparent that particularly, I think, through the south southwest, there were local family docs who counted every febrile illness as malaria. And you soon found that we didn't have a lot of malaria. And I think one of the last outbreaks that I remember was in Oklahoma, an indian reservation, where they had a local spread and maybe half a dozen cases. But I think that probably came along about 57 or so, maybe a little later than that. But that was the last vestige of any malaria. And in a way, I thought, kind of ironic, because here's this organization set up to control malaria in the southern United States, and they recruit their first epidemiologist, Alex Langmuir, 1949. And what does he do? He very soon shows that they're irrelevant because there is no malaria. And he always attributed it to the introduction of screens and deet. I don't know why that's come up with it. There was an insecticide, I think, parethroid compound, and it came with a. A canister and a little gun. And it was an advertisement which was very famous, which came up as quick Henry the Flint mosquito boy. It was so widely used. I mean, it was very inexpensive, and it was widely used, and so it was. And indeed, the people, in protecting themselves against the insects, were really winding up doing a lot in getting rid of malaria. So indeed, Alex is an epidemiologist who comes along who does not what they expected him to do by quite a ways.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=2957.93,3215.99"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/42","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e There were some animated discussions between Alex and others. Do you remember about issues with he and, for instance, lab people?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3215.99,3229.55"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/43","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. Yeah. Well, he and Ralph Hogan. Ho Hogan was head of the laboratory. He and Ralph Hogan didn't get along very well. And Sib Simmons was the head of the environmental or the insecticide group, whatever they call them. Not insecticide, but the entomology. Entomology group, yeah. And we didn't really have much to do at all with them and then. But who with? Hogan. Ralph Hogan. Somehow or other, they. There's a pull and tug here, because I think the laboratory was getting specimens, and they were writing up material and doing various things, and they're not communicating particularly well with the epidemiologists, or vice versa. And he always felt there should be much more communication. And they were doing things and developing tests and doing some tests, and he was not being informed about this.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3229.55,3306.302"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/44","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Was it a territorial issue?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3306.302,3308.358"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/45","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e No, I don't think it was. I think it was just that their whole virology. The whole virology unit was down in Montgomery. I'm not sure where Hogan was, whether he was down there, too, but I think it was more that there were two different functions and that it was, I think when we got involved with needing work done in specimens, Hogan could say, well, we'll do them or not. We'll do them in a hurry or nothing. I think on occasion, he regarded the specimens that we wanted to run as not being very important to his mission, and that, I think, happened not infrequently. And they had other things to do. I can see their vantage point better from a distance than at the time. But it's fair enough. And it was not a happy marriage, that's for sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3308.358,3381.91"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/46","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I wondered if it would have something to do with Alex coming in later, because the lab people had been there from the beginning with malaria.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3381.91,3396.19"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/47","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I'm not sure how they split the lab bit, how much of the malaria laboratory work was done by the malaria division, if you will. To be honest with you, I just really don't know what they did. I don't have the sense. I had the feeling that Simmons and his group were the long established group, and their base was really Savannah, and they basically kept to themselves pretty much. And then the laboratory people, they. I don't think Hogan's office was in the building. Well, it wasn't, obviously, until at least 1960, and I don't recall it being there then. So you had. We were in a separate unit, just epidemiology, as I recall, in Peachtree street, and then we moved up to the new building. But I think the lab people there weren't. I don't think there were lab facilities in that building at all. And they were dependent on labs out in Chambly, I think, was what, at that time?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3396.19,3471.364"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/48","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e The Quonset huts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3471.364,3472.836"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/49","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. That's right.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3472.836,3475.004"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/50","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. I've heard a lot about the Quonset huts.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3475.004,3477.324"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/51","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. And they were not great quarters, that's for sure, others that preceded him in the interim. But I think he's been intellectually and emotionally better for that job than anybody they'd had before. Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3477.324,3494.446"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/52","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e He's very calm and fair.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3494.446,3497.238"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/53","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Mm hmm. Yeah. And imaginative. Yeah. But he's retired. Is that what he.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3497.238,3504.79"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/54","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e No, well, he's retired from the public health service, but still working very hard.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3504.79,3509.226"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/55","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3509.226,3510.17"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/56","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e A summary of all of the eIs. Epis came out, I guess, in December, and I'm thinking it's the journal of Epidemiology that he did. So when I interviewed three of the people from the class of 1950, trying.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3510.17,3529.818"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/57","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e To rewrite it for the epi aid and also a paper washing, a bit of a job. So, no, I must say I chased Epi aids for a long time in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3529.818,3540.804"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/58","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Your position, as they.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3540.804,3543.02"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/59","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, well, actually there were, let me put it this way. I think when I came back, Alex, I kind of moved in at Alex's request, was sort of his alternate and deputy. He and Phil got along, but not so well. So I then wound up a lot with Alex, and so I wound up doing a number of things that was really a busy time. In fact, getting into trouble, getting us into smallpox, which was bit of a mistake, actually. But the wer, the MMWR was taken up in 1960, and Russ Alexander tried to make that go for a very short period of time before Russ left. And then I got it after that and had it for like the first five years, really. And it was impossible to get people to write for that. Oh, God, I was really scratching. I mean, you know, trying to get people. You've been out in the outbreak. Look, just give me this much, you know, and trying to get enough material for that, because we tried to make it into a reasonable kind of document, and gradually we began to get more of it, but it was for a while, and of course, now you got all sorts of material for it, but it was very difficult to get anybody to do anything with it. And then it was analyzed. The idea was that these would be published the way they'd been published before. They were not attributed. They were reports that had a come in. So Alex thought it was a good idea, and it was his idea that we give authorship. And I would say it was within a short period of time, it had to be in the early sixties, that it became recognized that there was no faster publication than the MMwrden. So we had a number of publications which would normally have gone in and actually did in a more elaborate fashion in a journal. But they were some, I'd say prominent professors who were involved and who saw this as wanting to get early publication. There they were. That was a great idea. Yeah, yeah, it was a good idea and he was responsible for that. And it really, I think it's been very worthwhile. It was a very good idea because right now there are organizations where they still turn out material and there's no attribution possibly involved and that's really a problem. But the MMWR, when we first got started on it, I remember getting the list of who all is getting this. I got that list early on, probably in 61. Reading through this list, I was very surprised because they were all funeral home operators or mortuaries, most of them.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3543.02,3766.1"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/60","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e No kidding.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3766.1,3767.06"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/61","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. And we, I think there were 5000 something like that, subscriptions to the MMWR. And I would guess more than 4000 were of that character. And we sent them out and we expanded the distribution list quite a bit to cover a broader public health community. But gradually we began to learn what this was all about. We had, you know, the weekly record total number of deaths in 109 cities by city. So this was really a business journal for these guys. What share of the business did they have? And it was amazing. And when I tried, I suggested we cut it way back and we had a lot of protests.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3767.06,3828.86"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/62","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Here I was thinking that they may be concerned about possible infection from an.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3828.86,3833.596"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/63","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Infectious disease while treating the body for purely. Oh, you can see you're looking at the share of business. That's it. I see the elements of these things you don't really think about. But. And then he started the idea of the surveillance reports which really grew from the polio. There were, I think, a couple of reports before 1955 and it could have been in diphtheria as I think Helen Moore was doing. Mainly diphtheria and I think did put out a surveillance report or two, I don't remember. But it was after that the polio really set a tone and very popular. And then we began doing other reports. We did hepatitis, I think was one of the next ones. We also opened one on measles in which there would be, the report would go out maybe once every two, three months. And you put in material there which you could elaborate on it and provide a little material interpretation and focus on it. And this proved to be very valuable. And that was an idea that I picked up. But then from when I went to Geneva, I decided we'd have a surveillance.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3833.596,3938.328"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/64","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Report for a World Health Organization.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3938.328,3940.776"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/65","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. And that I would then send this out. Well, we've got 50 countries with programs. And you tried to do what Alex had done. I wanted one individual in each country that we would have communication with and try to establish that so that you then had a point of contact querying what have you. And it wasn't, you got a ministry, but you got a whole lot of people at different titles and different levels and you really had to have somebody. Who was it? So we managed to establish that. I got the first surveillance report done and it was about six, seven, eight months after I was there. I did my first surveillance report which went out. And then the next one, number two, came out. I had about, I think, two, three months, maybe two months, the next one, and it was turned down. I was informed that the director general has decided there are too many publications being sent out from the headquarters of all types. So there was going to be a committee name to review all publications and decide which ones they would continue and which ones would not. I was in a bind then, so I went to the assistant director general, Karifa Smart, talked about it, explained what we were doing and so forth. He said, oh, I think that's a good idea, what you're doing. He said, tell you what, why don't you take that report that we've turned back, do it differently. He wasn't quite sure how differently, but so it was differently. And he said, it'll be all right. I think it's okay. So I went back and tried to figure out how to do the report I've just done, but do it differently. So I don't know. I changed cover and I did organization, I don't know, several things, and sent it off and turned down again. But to me, it was an important thing to do. So I then went to. I really wondered what to do. And I was at. I finally decided that I can't run this place or this having people in all these different countries trying to get some common purpose, trying to get them looking at issues and strategy and how can I do this unless I have some sort of a medium to communicate with him? So I went to the director general and I said, I've had the trouble with the surveillance reports. And he says, yes, he knew. And I said, I can't run this program without the surveillance report. And I said, I'm sure that there are people who can run the program without it, but I cannot. So he said, no, don't do anything rational. He said, let me work on this. And so it was several weeks later, the proposal was made that instead of a surveillance report, who has the weekly epidemiological record? And he said, why? The idea was, I put that in the weekly epidemiological record. So it'll be sort of like the MMWR. But the weekly epidemiological record up to that time was a line listing, if you will, of all the countries that had all the counties, and all the countries had cholera, all the counties with yellow fever, all of those smallpox. We called it the laundry list of local infected areas, because it really didn't do much more than that. So the guy who did that was an australian guy. We got along very well. So we started putting in piece on smallpox, which would go on for a page, maybe two pages, and then it got a little longer, it got a little more frequent, and we moved it from the back page where it started, to the front page. Then the order came. It cannot be in the front page more than twice a year.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=3940.776,4226.52"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/66","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e You had found the limits to which you could.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4226.52,4228.552"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/67","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, we found the well, but at that point, then after that was going on for a while, then I re instituted sending out things every three weeks. With that, I would send something along, but it's not in the surveillance report. It was kind of a report on somebody's work. And wherever it was and they were sending it in, I was rewriting it for them. I got a lot of local stuff, things that worked locally. And so the weekly epidemiological record then we had, I think, I don't know how many different, how many we had. By the time it finished, we were about 180 something different issues. But that became the real document. And it was really taking up from where I was at CDC, from the weekly epidemiology or from the MMWR. Suddenly we were doing the wer and it was proved to be a very, very useful document. And in addition, we were basically providing a kind of surveillance report, which was useful. But when I got into methodology of how do you do a survey on X and Y? That would be simple, and somebody done this in Nigeria, and this is what it looks like, then that would be a separate paper accompanying it. I never had any objections after that, but that is the way the wer turned out to be totally different document.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4228.552,4321.32"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/68","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e So you had the experience and the intuition to include that in your job when you transferred to World Health Organization?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4321.32,4330.88"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/69","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I just took the idea and the weekly epidemiological record existed and been going on for some time, and we simply amplified it a little bit in various ways.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4330.88,4346.0"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/70","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Base rates must have been base population numbers must have been difficult to assert.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4346.0,4353.84"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/71","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e They had. Who has a document list? Let's say there's a whole bunch of addresses which will receive all documents of the organization. So that was there. We didn't touch that. But then we could add that to that, the people program people, and we could elaborate the list. But there's a basic list, and I think they ran that as kind of a separate piece, but I really don't know how they got it out. It went out to all the people I wanted it to. How it got there, I don't know, but it did. But we have a tremendous file of these papers that have gone out that never been published, because what I swore was that you sent in a paper, and it's not in the best English. I will write it, rewrite it for you, whether it's German, English, Czech English, whatever is. And this goes back then to a thread when I was in Oberlin College and doing the yearbook. I did a huge amount of writing because there was so much that had to be written, and I got into the habit of writing a lot of it. I had even a short term with a column in the weekly newspaper. I couldn't keep it all up. I dropped that. But it was. I'd done a lot of reporting. Then there is the reports that I began one of the EIS 1961 that I sent out to all EIS officers, which we did that regularly, and I just sent those off to Steve. I've got a set that's more complete than what he had. So that went off this week, actually. There's a three volume from 61 up until the time I left. It was 66, but it listed who was going out on various epicalls, who was some of the personal things, transfers, a whole lot of stuff. It was kind of an in house document, which I felt was, again, another thing that would make it. You were special. You were part of the EIS, and a lot of these people whom you've only seen very briefly at the EIS conference, and you've broken up, and still you've got names and their events and what they're doing forth. So I think it helped a lot. And I must say the writing was. I'm not sure the time when you're writing and writing and writing. Oh, my God. When I was in who. I was writing all the time. It was part of the. You really had to do it if you're going to have a scattered group. And in who. Our total office staff was ten. I mean, really, we had three secretaries. I had two administrative officers. We were authorized for nine. And then eventually I got a 10th medical officer, so there were four. And it was a challenge. And the challenge was quite simply, we could not. Obviously, we didn't have email or computers. That's right. No computers. You had telex we could not use very often because it was very expensive and you couldn't telephone. My God, those were astronomical. We didn't even call home very often because it was so expensive. So the question of what do you do to keep in touch? And that means travel or it means sending things out through the post of the, let's say the special diplomatic pouch that would go direct to the. To the country at least. But. Well, I could tell stories, but you suppose to any communication that I had from Geneva, let's say it's Uganda, I should write that memorandum to the regional director who was located in Brazzaville. He, in turn, would look at it and have one of his people then draft something that would incorporate this and send it to the WHO representative in Kampala, who then at his eventually get around to then give it to whoever was the WHO staff member who was responsible for smallpox, which usually took maybe five, six months before you could get a reply on anything. How frustrating it was. And if the regional director decided he didn't want to send on what you'd written, that's it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4353.84,4697.252"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/72","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e And did you know that it wasn't sent on?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4697.252,4699.5"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/73","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e No. So there was another solution to it. And the solution was to send the original through its proper route and to copy it by mail to where it was going to go. Well, it may not be the greatest fastest, but it got there. Well, I couldn't spend money on the mail, so I took that out of pocket. I paid for that myself. But in that way it went. And it was Uganda that really got us into trouble at one point, because the message came in from the regional office, could we send 2 million doses of smallpox vaccine urgently that they're running out? I thought, oh, my goodness, we're in trouble because I'd already gotten that message from Uganda about three, four months before and we'd already dispatched it to Uganda, or at least I thought that was the 2 million. And I couldn't be sure whether this was another request or whether it was just the original request, which is just making it. It was surprising I never got caught on this. The regional directors, I don't know why they didn't. I thought any time I would get an edict that I was just not. But you couldn't. So I could use the pouch to get the material as far as the regional office, but then getting it into the individual countries was then a problem.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4699.5,4810.3"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/74","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e So you did a work around.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4810.3,4812.78"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/75","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, yeah, there were things done that maybe weren't quite kosher.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4812.78,4818.924"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/76","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e You did what you had to do.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4818.924,4821.02"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/77","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4821.02,4821.556"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/78","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e It goes along with talking to Joel Bremen. He was talking about how flexibility came into play many times. That was the term used.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4821.556,4830.892"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/79","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e That's right, yes. Flexibility was clearly what it was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4830.892,4835.708"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/80","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Flexibility.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4835.708,4836.818"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/81","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e But in a way, I would also say this, too. Alex was this way with the. With his. With the epidemiology branch, getting things. He would bypass a number of people and getting things done. And I know a certain amount of the international communication, which he would have, which wouldn't be a lot, but every so often there'd be a bit of a to do because this really should go through channels. And we'd say, oh, my goodness, yes, we certainly wouldn't do that again. And you go on, you get it done. The smallpox program did have a bad reputation for the administrative side. They were nothing. They were not happy with it because we were constantly found to be bypassing conventional routes. So it got done.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4836.818,4905.22"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/82","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I was going to ask you, too, if you knew anything about the. The emphasis on bioterrorism in the early days of CDC.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4905.22,4917.054"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/83","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4917.054,4918.158"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/84","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e And if you could talk about that for a bit.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4918.158,4922.19"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/85","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, I'm not sure there's an awful lot to say. Alex Langmuir was an advisor to the. Advisor to the. I think it was the armed forces epidemiological board, which is a military group. And during the war, he had been part of the respiratory disease commission, I think it was called, where they were looking at the problems of respiratory infections in troops. And this took, particularly in the training camps, that took quite a few people out. There was a lot of absenteeism because of it, and they're trying to deal with that. And then he sort of. It really is never very clear. But he did have secret clearance. I did not. He was the only one that did. So. A number of things went on that I would not know about. And he did consult on the potential biological weapons. The genesis of this relates to the Japanese, who in World War two had a camp, I mean, a laboratory, and they, in fact, produced a number of organisms and waged war on China in a number of ways. They were releasing cholera was involved, and some of it, I think, they tried to plague. They did a number of things. And then when, at the end of the war, that laboratory then became part of China, located in China and Harbin. So it was in China. And of course, they had access then to all of the material that they had done. Now, how much actually was left that they could get it, that they could take over, I have no idea. But I think the feeling was that there was quite a bit of techniques and methods and so forth that they had there that would have gone to the Chinese. Then we were in the Korean War, and there was concern that there would be possibly use of biological weapons by the Koreans. One of the things that came up member well, was the question of could they float organisms across in a balloon? Preposterous. It may seem they actually did float a lot of balloons over with incendiary devices, and they did start some fires. And there was a question about that possibility of them doing that. And I think as much as I can make out from Alex's take and so forth, he proposed the idea of having a group of epidemiologists who would be on 24 hours call to investigate an epidemic or wherever it might be, in fact, be quickly responsive, and that this would be really the best defense that we would have against some unusual outbreaks occurring as a result of use of biological weapons, which, looking back on it, it probably was not a bad idea, because nih, as I told you, this was a voluntary thing, that they didn't automatically do it. Let's say you got something in Idaho or you got something in Minnesota or wherever. They don't have the capacity or capability or laboratory backup or whatever to do what's needed to identify and control. So the idea of having some flexible group of epidemiologists on 24 hours call was what he sold the idea on, that's my understanding. And then this, I think, in a way, sets a precedent, that sort of responsiveness. It was an opportunity then for him to talk to state epidemiologists and say, here's help, and I'm happy to send people immediately. He took originally, would take all the calls himself then, and there weren't all that many. But then I began picking them up in early sixties, and so they began calling me more often than Alex. I think he was more tied up. So. And usually the call came about roughly 05:30 p.m. friday afternoon, just as everybody's left, and some complicated damn thing, you know, and then you really. But I don't know. I think they just got panicky. They got sitting in so many cases and they need help. So at that point, you run down people and get them on the plane, get them off. But at any rate, it did build, I think, some bridges for responsiveness. And it was unique. There was nothing like that. In fact, there was a best of my knowledge, this did not exist elsewhere. We met often with people from. Not often, but we met a number of times with the people from the public health laboratory service in England with a very good number of different laboratories processing specimens. And they use that. They get a cluster of cases identified, or, let's say organisms, and they would sometimes go out and have their people go out to do the investigation. But that was different from what Alex was proposing. Basically, he was saying, you got a suspicion we're ready to go. And I think that was important. So that in the smallpox program, what we set up was to have every health unit report every week on cases of smallpox, and to begin, from the very beginning, having a team, a couple of people, go out to that place, see if they can find other cases and vaccinate. And the effect of this was to build a rapport, in the sense they knew that if they reported something, they would get help, and it was worthwhile. Somebody wasn't a report just going into the archives somewhere. It meant that there was really action being taken. And this had a huge effect in building the rapidity and irregularity of reports from in the various countries. But it was, in a way, it is a takeoff on the MMDH, the epidemic intelligence concept, and epidemiolex, using this as an opportunity for people to go out. It gave them experience. It built a link with the epidemiologists, and it certainly gave us a better idea of what was going on in the country.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=4922.19,5387.44"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/86","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I'm just thinking what a career you've had, what a lifetime of experiences.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5387.44,5393.736"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/87","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, I have had. It's very odd. I wound up, really, at one time or another, just sort of winding up with a tremendous opportunity and suddenly finding myself in the middle of something which was not what I expected and which turned out to be really a terrific experience.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5393.736,5417.0"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/88","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I doubt that you fell into anything. I think that you probably made a lot of those things happen because of your skillset.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5417.0,5423.168"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/89","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, winding up as dean at Hopkins was winding up in the White House. It's not something. I was going the other way. I really didn't want the job. And then after that, it's sort of after 911, I'm in the secretary's office five days afterwards, and the biggest concern is that there's going to be another attack, and it's going to be biological. Suddenly, we're organizing an office of preparedness and response, which three months later, had. The congress had passed an emergency bill for us $5 billion. How did I get into this?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5423.168,5473.86"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/90","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e And there you were.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5473.86,5474.956"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/91","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, there it was.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5474.956,5477.94"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/92","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I have one final question.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5477.94,5479.868"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/93","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Sure.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5479.868,5480.524"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/94","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e It's from an anonymous person. And it is for you to ask you the question about a picture of three Mendez. And the caption under the picture is, three sticks are not enough. And I'm using a word that rhymes with the real word.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5480.524,5500.382"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/95","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5500.382,5501.318"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/96","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Do you know what I'm talking about?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5501.318,5502.814"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/97","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5502.814,5504.11"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/98","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Can you tell me about that picture? I don't know what they're talking about.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5504.11,5511.47"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/99","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. This happened in about 2003, 2004, and we'd made this tremendous effort to get smallpox vaccine when 911 hit and we called CDC. How much vaccine do you have? Going out the door? And we have an episode right away. And 90,000 doses. Most of the rest of 15 million doses. The diluent had gone bad and they hadn't retired and so forth. So not only did the best we have would be 15 million doses, but it wasn't really going to be enough if we had an attack. And so we went all out with a special effort to get what we thought was going to be 40 million doses. But then the secretary wound up at a press conference and sort of fell back up against the wall of what we were doing. And he guaranteed us dose for every person in the United States. Instead of getting 40 million, which we thought would be what we would need, we got 300 million. So the trouble with the vaccine was it had been made before on calves. So basically, you shaved the calf, made the scratches, smeared the vaccine on it. A week later, you killed the calf, scraped it off, and that's your vaccine. And it's got to be bacterial, there's going to be some bacteria in it, and it's really not the way to do it. You'd like to do it with a tissue cell culture. So we figure we're getting 300 million doses. We've got to. We're not going to set up a new production operation, produce it. We're going to have to do it in tissue cell culture. So we worked on this with a guy named Phil Russell, who was really a genius. And what was minimally a five year program, we had the vaccine coming in, in 24 months. And we then began. Because it was produced in tissue cell culture, it was different than any vaccine before. Second thing was different was that it was a clone. It wasn't the exact same I told you about cloning the virus. So we only had one of the clones and we were producing it with one clone. So there are a number of studies that were done and we had this little device that bifurcated needles. And the idea we were doing a number of studies to be sure that the vaccine we were now using would be equivalent to what we had, which was the earlier vaccine been used a long time. And so you had to do quite a number of people. CDC was doing some, the military was doing a. Doing some. We're working some with FDA and using the bifurcated needle. We'd found out early when we started using a bifurcated needle, which is another remarkable incidence, where all of a sudden these were found quite by accident. And they were going to use. Yeah, they're going to use it like this. And we said, well, let's try. Try this. So we soon found, though, when we tried to use it in the country, that when they said we would do three for a primary vaccination and people would do this and 15 for re vaccination, in which case you do this. Well, when you did this, you inserted the virus deeply enough to get a take. When you do this, you often had failures. So after that, 15 sticks were what you did. And all the experimentation was done. All of the studies were done with 15, not three. So we're all set to go. We're ready to send out, we're writing the formal little instructional sheets to go and get a call from FDA. But the original document here, back when this was patented, said it was three for primary vaccination and 15 for re vaccination. Well, the way we'd been doing the vaccination before was to take a needle, the customary way is press it through the skin lightly. And the way the bifurcated needle was made, so you had two points, and so it made two pressures, pricks at the same time, two penetrations of the skin at the same time. So they decided three to take five divided by two. Well, it comes out three, so we're going to do three. That was the destruction. Why didn't they do the same with 15? Why didn't they say, well, eight for re vaccination? And I talked with people, why, if they had no idea? And I said, well, why the five and the 15? Well, they didn't know, but that's what was in the original sheet. So chesters were ready to go out with this document. FDA calls and said, yes, but it says 15 here. And actually the original that said three. And it sort of got the patent with three and 15. So you can imagine we had a battle royal with FDA. There were words exchanged which I would not wish to repeat. And they stuck by the guns. They wouldn't change it. So a poster was prepared with a picture of myself, Phil Brock, Phil Russell and Stuart Simonson, three of us. And it was the three pricks.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5511.47,5920.35"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/100","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e A poster?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5920.35,5921.918"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/101","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, yeah, it was kind of a big thing that was done. It was done with great, good, humorous.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5921.918,5932.52"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/102","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, dear.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5932.52,5933.864"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/103","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e So that is the. Yes, that's the genesis of the three bricks.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5933.864,5938.136"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/104","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e That was not in your book.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5938.136,5940.28"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/105","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e No, no. Oh, that was. That was just horrible getting FDA at this point in time.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5940.28,5949.92"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/106","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e And what was the role of Simonson?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5949.92,5953.6"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/107","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Stewart, Washington? Stewart had been a very close confidant of Secretary Thompson in Wisconsin. And when Thompson came to be secretary, he was an attorney. He was a deputy director of the office, of the legal office. But actually he was a right hand to. To the secretary and a very wonderful guy. He just can't say enough good things about him. And when we got stuck with things in the department and got stuck with the bureaucracy, Stuart, what do you think? And Tommy was he, the secretary also wanted to be called Tommy. So I said, can you see what Tommy would think about this? And my goodness, things got solved. And finally, after I'd said I was only going to stay for six to eight months while they got somebody to fill the job permanently, I was taking on an emergency basis, and I said, all right, I'll do it, but I just am sick and tired of commuting to Washington. Well, it took about a year, and then we got a disaster, which was a big mistake and bad judgment, but. So the office did not thrive, for it must have been a year and a half, two years, we lost all the momentum. It was dreadful. But then Stuart was brought in, who was not technically able to, but he quite. He's a fast learner and he did a great job. So, yeah, he was a remarkable find. He's a very good friend, still is. And even though he's a Republican, he's still all right. And of course, getting him was a real remarkable bit. The other one that I got, which was a remarkable event, too, was getting Phil Russell to take on the vaccine job. We needed the vaccine. We were working with Tom Monath, who's a very capable guy who was with the canvas. But Tom. Tom certainly was rather junior compared to Phil. Phil had risen through the ranks as a physician and to the rank of major general in charge of all R and D for military medical R and D. He'd retired. I'd recruited him to Hopkins to be had the AIDS institute, which we had. And he did that for about four or five years. But this guy knew the laboratory had his commandant at UsAmra did a lot of work in the laboratory, knew the field, knew vaccine production. So there's one guy that this guy talked about rough edges, he did in his own special way. He was tough. And the only guy I could think of that really had the technical background to do it. And so I called Phil. He was at that time serving as a consultant to two or three different private companies on vaccines and doing all sorts of good things. And I said, phil, we got a problem, and can you come in and talk with us about the smallpox vaccine or. No? I said, we got a problem and we need to get somebody. That was it. And he said, gee, I don't know. Who do you have in mind? I said, gee, I really couldn't think of anybody. Finally I said, you know, I had good advice one time on getting somebody. And he said, oh, what was that? You get a hard nosed son of a bitch and have him kick ass. Dead silence on the other end of the phone. And then Phil said, God damn you, Henderson. So that doesn't come in the recruiting manuals normally. So Phil came aboard for a week, and at the end of a week, he said, okay, what am I going to do with these? And he showed me a whole bunch of plane tickets, all first class, of course, going to Korea and down to Brazil. And he said, I'm here.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=5953.6,6271.72"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/108","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Wow, that's dedication.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6271.72,6274.56"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/109","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. So I think in myself, as I think of all the jobs I've had and problems, it's being very lucky to have found Phil Russells and people like Nicole Grasse and people who seem to materialize. It just really changes everything. So, Phil, what we did, we had a committee, and we had all the key people on it. Nih, FDA, the army, so forth. We met about every two weeks, and Phil was chairing it. And, okay, next week report. And I remember one time there was one of the people from nih said, well, I think we really ought to take one more step. And that's. I would propose a group of 50 people will divide them into these two groups, this and this. And he turned and he said, that will not be necessary. Next question. And we had another time when we were having trouble. All the stuff was made in Austria, so it had to have a special license from the Department of Interior, no commerce, to come in. And. And we had a lot of it held up and was being held up. So that was reported. And I turned to the guy from commerce, and he was having trouble. And I said, would it help if my secretary called? Your secretary? Oh, why don't you? Wait, I think I can manage this. It was clear immediately. So that was. That's kind of the way that we got to getting all the vaccine. We did. But we were terrified, I'd be honest with you, we were really scared because we were afraid if we had it, what are we going to do? And this was right after it was November, October, November. What do we do if tomorrow we have a release? We knew that there's very little vaccine in the world because who had done a survey and there wasn't a lot of smallpox vaccine. There's no vaccine production facility anywhere in the world at that point. And the question what do we do? We looked at the possibility research laboratories that were growing tissue cell culture, and after fiddling with that a bit, we decided that's no way. That's not going to get us anywhere near what we need. Quality would be a problem, monitoring would be a problem. And we finally came to the conclusion that there was only one thing we could do if we were really stuck, and that was we go back to vaccination as it originally was. So you vaccinate one person, the pustule comes up, you take material from that pustule and vaccinate a number of others. That was the only thing that we had to use if we had an outbreak, if we didn't have the vaccine. So the idea of getting vaccine in quickly, and even though we hadn't had all the testing done or had very much testing at all, we were still in a position to use that, even if it had really rather more severe reactions than we hoped it would. But it was a desperate time, and there's nothing that quite focuses your attention as sort of saying, the shoe drops tomorrow. What do we do? And there was really no answer to that. And none of us really wanted to face up to putting together instructional materials and start training people in that, that's how much concern there was. Was it important? Yes. Was this a fake sort of, to get resources? I tell you, it was not. It was not. We knew about what the Russians had done, what they'd produced, how much expertise there was. We couldn't guarantee that we had it only in two places. There's no way you could guarantee that somebody hadn't had at least a couple of aisles. You couldn't tell it was there. You wouldn't know. So these were grim moments.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6274.56,6600.53"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/110","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e And you're still working on bioterrorism?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6600.53,6602.802"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/111","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah, yeah. Still fiddling around with it. We've got a little contingent up tomorrow afternoon from office of Proposal Prevention and Response. And Monday I'll be at CDC with Ali Khan and the group.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6602.802,6624.33"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/112","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e What's the beginning of eis?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6624.33,6627.09"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/113","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e No, this is a one day special meeting on preparedness and response.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6627.09,6632.01"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/114","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, the 16th is the beginning of the EIS conference.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6632.01,6634.794"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/115","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Is it?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6634.794,6635.212"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/116","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6635.212,6635.916"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/117","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e What day?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6635.916,6637.7"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/118","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Monday.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6637.7,6638.94"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/119","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Monday?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6638.94,6639.628"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/120","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6639.628,6640.66"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/121","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, my God. But they have it at some place other than perimeter. Yeah, it's at a hotel.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6640.66,6650.604"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/122","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. Perimeter. Rovinia, I think.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6650.604,6654.34"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/123","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Uh huh. So I was thinking, good God, that would mob CDC with it. Take the group down now.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6654.34,6662.086"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/124","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. Times have changed, but I want to thank you.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6662.086,6666.502"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/125","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e No, you're welcome.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6666.502,6667.334"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/126","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e For all of your time. This has been terrific.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6667.334,6671.27"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/127","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, I do feel some of these things need to be recorded somewhere. And I did so much in a book, but I also was aware of the fact that was very hard, too try to boil us down to. There were so many episodes and so many great stories of things that people had done and imaginative things that had happened that it was very hard to bring it down to size. And so it gets read and kind of carries a story in a way that would be inspiring to younger people who would be interested in public health. And it's clearly, judging from the correspondence I get and the response I get when I'm out a couple, three times a year doing that sort of a large group, it really seems to go over very well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6671.27,6738.41"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/128","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e It reads like a novel.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6738.41,6741.97"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/129","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, it was on hepatitis, an outbreak of hepatitis in a naval training station down in Florida. And which he began talking about it and explaining this and what the people did, and they investigated it. And he got probably half to two thirds of the way through. And he looked at me and he said, your name is on that paper. I said, yes, it was. And he said, well, I think it's a very good paper and it's very interesting. Well, what I didn't tell him was that there was somehow or other, there were a whole lot of people did get hepatitis as a result of eating food, foodstuffs, and it was traced down and so forth. All that was very good. I mean, it was a fairly straightforward kind of workup and not terribly complicated. What we didn't put in was how the mayonnaise got contaminated. And what happened was there was a. One of the navy guys, recruits, was teed off and he peed in the mayonnaise. We couldn't put it in the paper. So it was sort of mysteriously, the food got contaminated. How did the mayonnaise get contaminated? So we've left it sort of vague and we learn from him that this was vengeance. So you can only tell so much of a story. It's really something. But his telling that. And that's when I realized the difference between Alex teaching and this sort of a teaching. He was teaching from a paper, whereas in the courses and the classes we're teaching from actual experiences and makes a big difference.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6741.97,6884.31"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/130","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e So you got the whole picture from Doctor Langner.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6884.31,6888.75"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/131","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eA:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, he had a huge impact on me, there's no doubt about it. And everything from surveillance to fieldwork to portraying things as they may be, of finding ways to get things done that do not seem to be so obvious or maybe even quite so. I'll say. Kosher.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6888.75,6920.04"},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/132","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eB:\u003c/strong\u003e I think we'll leave it at that. Well, thanks again. Good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444#t=6920.04,6925.54"}]},{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["English [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://globalhealthchronicles.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2843/collection_resources/132665/file/247444/transcript/68958/annotation/133","type":"Annotation","motivation":"subtitling","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/068/958/original/transcript_1765567229.vtt20251212-2593616-99ma67.vtt20251212-2593616-99ma67?1765567229","format":"text/vtt","language":"en"},"target":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/file_transcripts/associated_files/000/068/958/original/transcript_1765567229.vtt20251212-2593616-99ma67.vtt20251212-2593616-99ma67?1765567229"}]}]}]}